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	<title>Comments on: Nostalgie de la boue</title>
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	<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2009/06/10/nostalgie-de-la-boue/</link>
	<description>mocking the ways of true grown men</description>
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		<title>By: R.S.</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2009/06/10/nostalgie-de-la-boue/comment-page-1/#comment-32547</link>
		<dc:creator>R.S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=1208#comment-32547</guid>
		<description>&quot;Labour has already effectively capitulated to this narrative, promising to cushion the blows that must inevitably fall but still insisting, with a truly bizarre dedication to unreality, that the electorate will not forgive them if they fail to uphold the “tough decisions” that will be dictated to them by - in all probability - the IMF.&quot;

Yes!!!  I think you are right on the mark with what you have written in the above post.

It is interesting to see you reference Dennett here, by the way.  I enjoy his work, but am usually afraid to bring it up in what I perceive to be hostile environs (although Zizek has made a few favorable comments, interestingly enough).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Labour has already effectively capitulated to this narrative, promising to cushion the blows that must inevitably fall but still insisting, with a truly bizarre dedication to unreality, that the electorate will not forgive them if they fail to uphold the “tough decisions” that will be dictated to them by &#8211; in all probability &#8211; the IMF.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes!!!  I think you are right on the mark with what you have written in the above post.</p>
<p>It is interesting to see you reference Dennett here, by the way.  I enjoy his work, but am usually afraid to bring it up in what I perceive to be hostile environs (although Zizek has made a few favorable comments, interestingly enough).</p>
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		<title>By: Gabe</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2009/06/10/nostalgie-de-la-boue/comment-page-1/#comment-32540</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=1208#comment-32540</guid>
		<description>OK, sorry, but your fear of Cameron in power is explained in terms of Post Office privatisation, or roads, so it didn&#039;t seem like a rhetorical trick or silly to talk about why this is a bad thing, and if it is, does this mean nationalisation is a good thing, and if so, to what extent.

The Badiou project looks from the outside like &#039;new communism&#039; à la &#039;new labour&#039; - and with new labour the shift with clause 4 was to say, nationalisation is not a necessary condition to achieving social justice. &#039;Old&#039; communists believe that the state/ democratic worker collectives, not the market, has to control all areas of the economy to ensure social justice.

So it&#039;s not a demand for a political programme, but a political principle. Otherwise, he seems to be putting a communist/ radical label on what would normally be called mixed-economy social democracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, sorry, but your fear of Cameron in power is explained in terms of Post Office privatisation, or roads, so it didn&#8217;t seem like a rhetorical trick or silly to talk about why this is a bad thing, and if it is, does this mean nationalisation is a good thing, and if so, to what extent.</p>
<p>The Badiou project looks from the outside like &#8216;new communism&#8217; à la &#8216;new labour&#8217; &#8211; and with new labour the shift with clause 4 was to say, nationalisation is not a necessary condition to achieving social justice. &#8216;Old&#8217; communists believe that the state/ democratic worker collectives, not the market, has to control all areas of the economy to ensure social justice.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s not a demand for a political programme, but a political principle. Otherwise, he seems to be putting a communist/ radical label on what would normally be called mixed-economy social democracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Levi</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2009/06/10/nostalgie-de-la-boue/comment-page-1/#comment-32536</link>
		<dc:creator>Levi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=1208#comment-32536</guid>
		<description>Ack!  I hope I&#039;m not guilty of the sorts of ad hominems you describe here, Dominic.  My experience with Badiou is similar to the one described by Alex, where he was a breath of fresh air in an academic philosophical context dominated by deconstruction, historically informed textual analyses in phenomenology and hermeneutics, and a sort of vapid identity politics theorizing.  

My gripes with Badiou are at the level of metaphysics, not his theory of the subject.  With that said, I think Badiou&#039;s development of the &quot;body&quot; in relation to the subject in Book I of &lt;em&gt;Logics of Worlds&lt;/em&gt; is a tremendous improvement over the account of the subject in &lt;em&gt;Being and Event&lt;/em&gt;.  I think his discussions of Sparticus and the slave revolt are especially illuminating.  Here I think Badiou&#039;s analysis of these sorts of movements comes very close to Latour&#039;s actor-network-theory of social formations.  It&#039;s all about how new bodies are built or assembled in a way that departs from the manner in which a situation is structured.  I suspect that when I sit down and read the whole thing I&#039;ll have a similarly positive response to the later parts of the book.  I&#039;m just disappointed with the theory of objects and relations.  So it goes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ack!  I hope I&#8217;m not guilty of the sorts of ad hominems you describe here, Dominic.  My experience with Badiou is similar to the one described by Alex, where he was a breath of fresh air in an academic philosophical context dominated by deconstruction, historically informed textual analyses in phenomenology and hermeneutics, and a sort of vapid identity politics theorizing.  </p>
<p>My gripes with Badiou are at the level of metaphysics, not his theory of the subject.  With that said, I think Badiou&#8217;s development of the &#8220;body&#8221; in relation to the subject in Book I of <em>Logics of Worlds</em> is a tremendous improvement over the account of the subject in <em>Being and Event</em>.  I think his discussions of Sparticus and the slave revolt are especially illuminating.  Here I think Badiou&#8217;s analysis of these sorts of movements comes very close to Latour&#8217;s actor-network-theory of social formations.  It&#8217;s all about how new bodies are built or assembled in a way that departs from the manner in which a situation is structured.  I suspect that when I sit down and read the whole thing I&#8217;ll have a similarly positive response to the later parts of the book.  I&#8217;m just disappointed with the theory of objects and relations.  So it goes.</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2009/06/10/nostalgie-de-la-boue/comment-page-1/#comment-32532</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=1208#comment-32532</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m getting pretty tired of collective (or individual, reflexive) ad hominems against &quot;Badiouvians&quot;, &quot;Badiou&#039;s supporters&quot; etc. serving in place of actual arguments against Badiou. Not interested. Don&#039;t care.

Narratives matter. Daniel Dennett refers to the &quot;self&quot; as a &quot;centre of narrative gravity&quot;: the non-selves that we are narrate selves into being, and not only personal and individual selves but also animistic alter egos, political and economic demons and spirits. Our theories about politics or economics have to take account of the hyperstitional character of these folk-entities, which means both postulating that they&#039;re not &quot;what&#039;s really there&quot; and recognising that they are produced as, and in turn produce, real effects.

The demand for a political programme is a rhetorical trap, I think. Programmes get put together by movements, not by bloggers trying to will movements into existence. It&#039;s as silly to ask the likes of me for a political programme as it is to expect Badiou to provide a roadmap to Communist Utopia. That&#039;s not how anything has ever happened, and it&#039;s not how anything is going to happen in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m getting pretty tired of collective (or individual, reflexive) ad hominems against &#8220;Badiouvians&#8221;, &#8220;Badiou&#8217;s supporters&#8221; etc. serving in place of actual arguments against Badiou. Not interested. Don&#8217;t care.</p>
<p>Narratives matter. Daniel Dennett refers to the &#8220;self&#8221; as a &#8220;centre of narrative gravity&#8221;: the non-selves that we are narrate selves into being, and not only personal and individual selves but also animistic alter egos, political and economic demons and spirits. Our theories about politics or economics have to take account of the hyperstitional character of these folk-entities, which means both postulating that they&#8217;re not &#8220;what&#8217;s really there&#8221; and recognising that they are produced as, and in turn produce, real effects.</p>
<p>The demand for a political programme is a rhetorical trap, I think. Programmes get put together by movements, not by bloggers trying to will movements into existence. It&#8217;s as silly to ask the likes of me for a political programme as it is to expect Badiou to provide a roadmap to Communist Utopia. That&#8217;s not how anything has ever happened, and it&#8217;s not how anything is going to happen in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabe</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2009/06/10/nostalgie-de-la-boue/comment-page-1/#comment-32531</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=1208#comment-32531</guid>
		<description>But Badiou, Cameron and Blair/Brown (but not Thatcher) were/are all serving the same function for their different groups of supporters - providing a story which can make them believe their project won&#039;t fail the way the previous projects did, to obscure the fact that were/ are offering nothing really new. Thatcher (and maybe Blair with the House of Lords, which he should get more credit for) had specific dismantling goals that didn&#039;t need any year zero or new day rhetoric.

&quot;We need a compelling counter-narrative&quot; - don&#039;t you really need (and clearly lack) a compelling counter-proposal? How far do you re-nationalise? BT? Vodafone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Badiou, Cameron and Blair/Brown (but not Thatcher) were/are all serving the same function for their different groups of supporters &#8211; providing a story which can make them believe their project won&#8217;t fail the way the previous projects did, to obscure the fact that were/ are offering nothing really new. Thatcher (and maybe Blair with the House of Lords, which he should get more credit for) had specific dismantling goals that didn&#8217;t need any year zero or new day rhetoric.</p>
<p>&#8220;We need a compelling counter-narrative&#8221; &#8211; don&#8217;t you really need (and clearly lack) a compelling counter-proposal? How far do you re-nationalise? BT? Vodafone?</p>
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		<title>By: my-two-cents</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2009/06/10/nostalgie-de-la-boue/comment-page-1/#comment-32528</link>
		<dc:creator>my-two-cents</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=1208#comment-32528</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t this commitment to (counter-)narrativisation a symptom of belief-desire folk psychology that Capitalism has already scrambled through its collusion with science and whose residues will be disposed of in the wake of Metzinger and the Churchlands? It strikes me that what you have in mind requires a cognitive structure that reinscribes precisely the form of intelligibility/calculability that Capitalism occludes and breaks away from. Also following Capitalism&#039;s partial or complete evasion of intelligibility, doesn&#039;t this ostensibly necessary and agentic compulsion for &#039;counter-storytelling&#039; become another passing sideshow in the pursuit for short-term human emancipation? In addition, don&#039;t you think that drawing upon an example of *concrete* British politics adheres to a rigid delimitation of world politics and its problems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this commitment to (counter-)narrativisation a symptom of belief-desire folk psychology that Capitalism has already scrambled through its collusion with science and whose residues will be disposed of in the wake of Metzinger and the Churchlands? It strikes me that what you have in mind requires a cognitive structure that reinscribes precisely the form of intelligibility/calculability that Capitalism occludes and breaks away from. Also following Capitalism&#8217;s partial or complete evasion of intelligibility, doesn&#8217;t this ostensibly necessary and agentic compulsion for &#8216;counter-storytelling&#8217; become another passing sideshow in the pursuit for short-term human emancipation? In addition, don&#8217;t you think that drawing upon an example of *concrete* British politics adheres to a rigid delimitation of world politics and its problems?</p>
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