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	<title>Comments on: Wyrd bith ful araed!</title>
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	<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/</link>
	<description>mocking the ways of true grown men</description>
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		<title>By: parodycenter</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30975</link>
		<dc:creator>parodycenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30975</guid>
		<description>Kenoma I transferred my reply to your blawg, so that Comrade Fox may read his Chomsky in peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kenoma I transferred my reply to your blawg, so that Comrade Fox may read his Chomsky in peace.</p>
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		<title>By: parodycenter</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30974</link>
		<dc:creator>parodycenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30974</guid>
		<description>Allow me this last one, for the sake of your lordship&#039;s honor, and then you can delete delete and delete all you want:

your vision here is understandable if one takes the Marxist (as well as commonsensical) approach that in a war, it takes two to tango, so that there can&#039;t be just one guilty side. I notice that this is the line taken at Leninino&#039;s, I suppose by SWP as well. But if for a moment you disregard the question of ethnicity, ethnic war etc and observe Serbia strictly politically, as a Russian ally on the peninsula (the most important one next to Greece), you will see that from the Imperial perspective, it is paramount to crack Serbia and Serbia only. Then you will also see that Serbia&#039;s defense wasn&#039;t primarily defined in ethnic terms - even as in any other country on the planet, Serbia had its own ultranationalists - while all other republics defined their new political program as the process of establishing an ethnic identity.

it is for this reason that I am vehemently critical of Marxist discourse about &#039;&#039;human rights&#039;&#039;, &#039;&#039;genocide&#039;&#039;, &#039;&#039;ethnicity&#039;&#039;, &#039;&#039;nationalism&#039;&#039; and &#039;&#039;feminism&#039;&#039; being applied in this instance to explain Yugoslavia. All that misses the point, because the politics of the players was more determined by the positions they wanted to strike in the new order of things, which Empire they would belong to, than by their alleged &#039;&#039;dispute&#039;&#039; and &#039;&#039;disharmony&#039;&#039; with Serbia. To put it bluntly, Slovenia went away because they wanted Austrian money, not because they are especially different from Serbs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allow me this last one, for the sake of your lordship&#8217;s honor, and then you can delete delete and delete all you want:</p>
<p>your vision here is understandable if one takes the Marxist (as well as commonsensical) approach that in a war, it takes two to tango, so that there can&#8217;t be just one guilty side. I notice that this is the line taken at Leninino&#8217;s, I suppose by SWP as well. But if for a moment you disregard the question of ethnicity, ethnic war etc and observe Serbia strictly politically, as a Russian ally on the peninsula (the most important one next to Greece), you will see that from the Imperial perspective, it is paramount to crack Serbia and Serbia only. Then you will also see that Serbia&#8217;s defense wasn&#8217;t primarily defined in ethnic terms &#8211; even as in any other country on the planet, Serbia had its own ultranationalists &#8211; while all other republics defined their new political program as the process of establishing an ethnic identity.</p>
<p>it is for this reason that I am vehemently critical of Marxist discourse about &#8221;human rights&#8221;, &#8221;genocide&#8221;, &#8221;ethnicity&#8221;, &#8221;nationalism&#8221; and &#8221;feminism&#8221; being applied in this instance to explain Yugoslavia. All that misses the point, because the politics of the players was more determined by the positions they wanted to strike in the new order of things, which Empire they would belong to, than by their alleged &#8221;dispute&#8221; and &#8221;disharmony&#8221; with Serbia. To put it bluntly, Slovenia went away because they wanted Austrian money, not because they are especially different from Serbs.</p>
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		<title>By: kenoma</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30973</link>
		<dc:creator>kenoma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30973</guid>
		<description>Well Western involvement long precedes the NATO invasion; it began with the secession of Slovenia. Neoliberalism as irrational bogeyman? Maybe, because there&#039;s nothing very novel about imperialism. But perhaps we can discuss this at a later time. 
&#039;Greater Albania&#039; isn&#039;t on the cards at all Dejan. And all that stuff about Muslims  deliberately &#039;breeding like rabbits&#039; was just vile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Western involvement long precedes the NATO invasion; it began with the secession of Slovenia. Neoliberalism as irrational bogeyman? Maybe, because there&#8217;s nothing very novel about imperialism. But perhaps we can discuss this at a later time.<br />
&#8216;Greater Albania&#8217; isn&#8217;t on the cards at all Dejan. And all that stuff about Muslims  deliberately &#8216;breeding like rabbits&#8217; was just vile.</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30972</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30972</guid>
		<description>I did say I would delete, Dejan, and delete I shall...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did say I would delete, Dejan, and delete I shall&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30971</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30971</guid>
		<description>I think the NATO invasion screws everyone&#039;s perspective; the propaganda for it on the one side, and the imperative to debunk and contest that propaganda on the other. I also believe that there&#039;s a line of pro-Serb apologetics that serves an entirely ethnically partisan exculpatory agenda, and that anti-Imperialist lefties have on occasion got suckered into complicity with that agenda, viz: minimizing Serbian atrocities, demonizing Serbia&#039;s regional adversaries, and blaming everything on &quot;neo-liberalism&quot; as if this were somehow less hopelessly superstitious and over-simplifying than the other side&#039;s racist hand-waving about &quot;ancient ethnic rivalries&quot;. But this is a largely uninformed (or, you may say, thoroughly indoctrinated) opinion, which I am in no position to defend with cogent and factual argument; hence my recourse to Chomsky, who may yet set me straight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the NATO invasion screws everyone&#8217;s perspective; the propaganda for it on the one side, and the imperative to debunk and contest that propaganda on the other. I also believe that there&#8217;s a line of pro-Serb apologetics that serves an entirely ethnically partisan exculpatory agenda, and that anti-Imperialist lefties have on occasion got suckered into complicity with that agenda, viz: minimizing Serbian atrocities, demonizing Serbia&#8217;s regional adversaries, and blaming everything on &#8220;neo-liberalism&#8221; as if this were somehow less hopelessly superstitious and over-simplifying than the other side&#8217;s racist hand-waving about &#8220;ancient ethnic rivalries&#8221;. But this is a largely uninformed (or, you may say, thoroughly indoctrinated) opinion, which I am in no position to defend with cogent and factual argument; hence my recourse to Chomsky, who may yet set me straight.</p>
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		<title>By: parodycenter</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30970</link>
		<dc:creator>parodycenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30970</guid>
		<description>A lot of the anti-Serb stuff was just thawed out from the Nazi period by the Germans and others.

Including the Great Albania, Kretinoma, for this was awarded to Albanians in Hitler&#039;s times, and the Kosovar Albanian very ethnogenesis is focused on the dream of having their big state - this is all I was trying to say before the Trotskyan Pollyannas jumped on me with allegations of racism, nationalism, misogyny, self-mutilating homophobia and all those other politically correct idioms. So that there is a fifity year continuity, the Albanian fight for independence never really stopped. You just didn&#039;t see it behind the Berlin wall. But whoever has trouble making up their mind on this issue, I will ask them a logical question: have they ever heard of SERBIAN TERRORISM in the West - such a thing only exists in the movie PEACEMAKER by Spielberg. Maybe then they will think, gee, where did I pick that up about Serbian nationalism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of the anti-Serb stuff was just thawed out from the Nazi period by the Germans and others.</p>
<p>Including the Great Albania, Kretinoma, for this was awarded to Albanians in Hitler&#8217;s times, and the Kosovar Albanian very ethnogenesis is focused on the dream of having their big state &#8211; this is all I was trying to say before the Trotskyan Pollyannas jumped on me with allegations of racism, nationalism, misogyny, self-mutilating homophobia and all those other politically correct idioms. So that there is a fifity year continuity, the Albanian fight for independence never really stopped. You just didn&#8217;t see it behind the Berlin wall. But whoever has trouble making up their mind on this issue, I will ask them a logical question: have they ever heard of SERBIAN TERRORISM in the West &#8211; such a thing only exists in the movie PEACEMAKER by Spielberg. Maybe then they will think, gee, where did I pick that up about Serbian nationalism?</p>
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		<title>By: kenoma</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30969</link>
		<dc:creator>kenoma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30969</guid>
		<description>Oh ok then; apologies for the scolding tone (I was miffed at being lumped in with Dejan)! I just think the Yugoslavia debacle is a very important issue, regardless of Zizek&#039;s lies on the issue, and one the left hasn&#039;t really come to terms with. But it&#039;s vital to understanding resurgent European imperialism, and a really chilling instance of manipulation of public opinion. A lot of the anti-Serb stuff was just thawed out from the Nazi period by the Germans and others. And also, a lot of tactics of manipulation laid the foundations for the current wars in a lot of ways.
That documentary I mentioned really is very good. It&#039;s based on a book by Nora Beloff, an Observer journalist who was an expert on Balkan affairs. In it, even the NYT journalist who started the &#039;Serb ethnic cleansing&#039; meme admits that it was a hugely inaccurate and one-sided representation of events. (In the google version, some short sequences seem to have been cut by Serb TV, but it doesn&#039;t really affect the overall argument).  
You might also check out the recent lengthy article in Monthly review by Edward Herman and David Peterson, which focusses on a lot of the same material.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh ok then; apologies for the scolding tone (I was miffed at being lumped in with Dejan)! I just think the Yugoslavia debacle is a very important issue, regardless of Zizek&#8217;s lies on the issue, and one the left hasn&#8217;t really come to terms with. But it&#8217;s vital to understanding resurgent European imperialism, and a really chilling instance of manipulation of public opinion. A lot of the anti-Serb stuff was just thawed out from the Nazi period by the Germans and others. And also, a lot of tactics of manipulation laid the foundations for the current wars in a lot of ways.<br />
That documentary I mentioned really is very good. It&#8217;s based on a book by Nora Beloff, an Observer journalist who was an expert on Balkan affairs. In it, even the NYT journalist who started the &#8216;Serb ethnic cleansing&#8217; meme admits that it was a hugely inaccurate and one-sided representation of events. (In the google version, some short sequences seem to have been cut by Serb TV, but it doesn&#8217;t really affect the overall argument).<br />
You might also check out the recent lengthy article in Monthly review by Edward Herman and David Peterson, which focusses on a lot of the same material.</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30968</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 22:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30968</guid>
		<description>No, no; I respect Chomsky and will read him...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, no; I respect Chomsky and will read him&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: kenoma</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30967</link>
		<dc:creator>kenoma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30967</guid>
		<description>I will leave - an Englishman&#039;s home is his castle and all that - but not with Dejan, and not to continue any conversation I am supposed to be having with him. In any case you have confirmed my suspicion that your promise to read more about Yugoslavia was not serious, and that your reference to &quot;something meaty and factual by Chomsky&quot; was meant as a jocular caricature of dry-as-dust leftism. But if you are serious about educating yourself on the Yugoslav conflict, let me recommend the film &#039;Yugoslavia: An avoidable war&#039; on google videos to start with. It even features two of your so-called Lords - Carrington and Steel - describing what a deception the anti-Serb narrative of that war was, so you&#039;ll know you&#039;re on safe ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will leave &#8211; an Englishman&#8217;s home is his castle and all that &#8211; but not with Dejan, and not to continue any conversation I am supposed to be having with him. In any case you have confirmed my suspicion that your promise to read more about Yugoslavia was not serious, and that your reference to &#8220;something meaty and factual by Chomsky&#8221; was meant as a jocular caricature of dry-as-dust leftism. But if you are serious about educating yourself on the Yugoslav conflict, let me recommend the film &#8216;Yugoslavia: An avoidable war&#8217; on google videos to start with. It even features two of your so-called Lords &#8211; Carrington and Steel &#8211; describing what a deception the anti-Serb narrative of that war was, so you&#8217;ll know you&#8217;re on safe ground.</p>
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		<title>By: parodycenter</title>
		<link>http://codepoetics.com/poetix/2007/11/30/wyrd-bith-ful-araed/comment-page-1/#comment-30966</link>
		<dc:creator>parodycenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://codepoetics.com/poetix/?p=490#comment-30966</guid>
		<description>Ok Dominic, we´re leaving. Best wishes in your programmatic pursuits and I hope you DO finally create the perfect cyborgian woman for yourself! Meantime, I am going to get laid with my favorite Marxist bitches...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok Dominic, we´re leaving. Best wishes in your programmatic pursuits and I hope you DO finally create the perfect cyborgian woman for yourself! Meantime, I am going to get laid with my favorite Marxist bitches&#8230;</p>
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